Talk:Literary Allusions in Turtledove's Work
Among those authors in need of sections who've occurred to me as I've gone through this, Marlowe, Rogers, Shakespeare, and de Vega remain to us. Marlowe, Rogers and de Vega should be simple enough. Though I originally suggested we do a page on Turtledove's Shakespearean references long before the idea for the Lit Allusions in general came to me, I tremble in fear at the idea of having to rack my brain for dozens of little bardolatries at this ungodly hour. (I'm getting a little old to get carried away like this so far past my bedtime.) I will declare an honest night's work done and take my leave. Turtle Fan 06:01, March 16, 2010 (UTC) Biblical Allusions Since this article has already turned into a fairly major undertaking, shall we go for broke by adding a section for Biblical allusions? Turtle Fan 19:38, March 16, 2010 (UTC) :At that rate, you might as well annotate each book generally. I don't object, I'm just wondering how practical this plan would be. TR 20:29, March 16, 2010 (UTC) ::Not even sure how I'd define a Biblical allusion. Someone saying something like "What a Good Samaritan you are" or "He's got the power to bind and loose" would belong there. A couple of Byzantines arguing over some tiny detail of their theology will you want to puke would not. How to get the former while avoiding the latter? That I don't know--and am not sure the former is interesting enough to justify all that activity, now that I lay it all out. (Wow! He said he would separate the sheep from the goats! Man, that's hilarious!) ::Meh, let's table it till we get really good at regular literary allusions, at least. Turtle Fan 23:50, March 16, 2010 (UTC) Pictures I like the pictures and witty captions we've used in our other trivia pages, but as I look at this article, I don't see much room for wit. TR 16:08, March 17, 2010 (UTC) :I've thought of, and been bothered by, that. We've got a lot of pictures which we could use--any author who has his own article, and any author who used to have his own article but got it deleted, as well; when I delete articles I don't delete the files that go with them. :It would surely be a good idea to include these pictures; this fucker's turning out to be longer than my dick, and so many unbroken lines of text is anything but compelling. But clever captions? I can't think of any way to do those. Turtle Fan 19:21, March 17, 2010 (UTC) ::Well, putting up pics for aesthetic value will do. TR 19:35, March 17, 2010 (UTC) :::If they're there inspiration for captions may eventually follow. "Look at (Margaret Mitch-)ALL these GWTW references! (taps mic) Hey, is this thing on?" Turtle Fan 19:52, March 17, 2010 (UTC) :On a completely unrelated note: Maybe we should shrink the pictures so they fit better within their sections. This way, we can get pics of every author we list. TR 03:29, March 19, 2010 (UTC) ::I guess we could. Hardly feels complete without pictures of Beverly MacDonald or John Fletcher. Turtle Fan 10:22, March 19, 2010 (UTC) :::I tried something with Asimov. Opinions? TR 14:26, March 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::Let's keep "|thumb" in so the names will show up. Turtle Fan 16:09, March 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::There--That looks pretty good. The full size really do get to be overwhelming in that quantity, even on such a long article. ::::We should probably do this with the Inconsistencies as well. I think Ideas has few enough pictures that it can remain as is. Turtle Fan 16:19, March 19, 2010 (UTC) :::::It does look good. Going back to your earlier point about Beverly MacDonald--we might consider in some instances foregoing images of the author and instead using images of their literary work. For example, a picture of Peter Falk might make more sense than a picture of his creators. Obviously some of the authors who are themselves recognizable cultural icons should have their portrait posted (Poe, Steinbeck), but some the others--I couldn't pick Rodat out of a line-up, but a poster for Saving Private Ryan would tell me exactly why I should care about his inclusion. TR 17:07, March 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Hmm, good idea. Especially for sections which simlpy read "So-and-so wrote a book that a character mentioned having read." Some variety to the pictures would make the page more interesting to look at as well. Turtle Fan 18:04, March 19, 2010 (UTC) Every picture now has a witty caption. Well, actual mileage may vary, but we've at least made the attempt. And many of them are now much less useful, if you don't recognize whom or what the picture is of. Turtle Fan 06:15, March 22, 2010 (UTC) By the way, is there anything we can do about those gray lines under the section titles? I don't mean get rid of them altogether, but a lot of them cut across pictures and captions. Turtle Fan 06:15, March 22, 2010 (UTC) L Sprague de Camp Alphabetically, shouldn't he come between Burroughs and Campbell? I believe the de is unimportant in these cases. We've got de Vega bringing up the rear, for instance. Turtle Fan 23:57, March 18, 2010 (UTC) :I think so. ::I guess you're right. I changed his position because the de Camp article has a default-sort at "D" If you still think so, I will change it back and change the article too. ML4E 19:39, March 19, 2010 (UTC) :::I would assume the fact that he used a lower case d meant he considered C to be his real initial. (I have known people who used De or Del as part of their name, but they capitalized it.) The article should be corrected as well. Turtle Fan 20:07, March 19, 2010 (UTC) Asimov He also wrote the forward/intro of A Different Flesh, come to think of it. TR 18:31, March 21, 2010 (UTC) :Hmm--I didn't realize they were so close. I assumed Turtledove was just another young SF writer who had been inspired by Asimov and had caught a break in his magazine. ::Both AoB and ADF were released in HC under the "Isaac Asimov Presents" banner, IIRC. TR 19:54, March 21, 2010 (UTC) :Of all the stories I've read in Foundation's Friends, which is far from all of them I have to say, "Trantor Falls" feels like the most authentic, in terms of capturing the elements of a classic Foundation story. Among the original trilogy, anyway; others are written more in the style of Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth, which I can do without. Though the writing style is undeniably Turtledovean, the story is Asimovian and would seem to fit into Asimov's enormous canon the most seamlessly of any of those stories. At any rate, it's my favorite of the collection. Turtle Fan 19:03, March 21, 2010 (UTC) ::I suppose I shall have to read Foundation one of these days. :::Oh, you must! It's wonderful stuff. You'll just fall in love with it right away. It's easy as hell to find and the most common edition is a nice, affordable Mass Market Paperback. Turtle Fan 21:09, March 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::I second that. I read them when Asimov's fourth Foundation book came out so I would know the story. I could do without that but the original trilogy was fantastic. ML4E 02:46, March 22, 2010 (UTC) ::Speaking of intros--HT himself is providing an intro do a new book about our favorite president, TF. TR 19:54, March 21, 2010 (UTC) ::::TF? That would be Theodore Featherston would it? ML4E 02:46, March 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::TF is me. Since I've never been President . . . of anything, not even of a club that I once made up myself . . . I assume that's direct address. ::::::Ah, right, I see that now, now that you mention it. I thought TR meant TR and made a typo so I tried to be funny. ML4E 03:12, March 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::::For most of my life I've been wishing that people would refer to me by my initials--my real ones. No one ever has. It comes so easily to online folks, but I never use my real name. If I did you'd probably all just call me John. Maybe the next time I have the opportunity to invent a screenname I'll make a very long one that alliterates my real name. Turtle Fan 03:37, March 22, 2010 (UTC) :::::Also I assume he refers to Lincoln. The only other POTUS of whom we've both expressed strong admiration is his namesake. Alternately, he might be using irony to suggest that Turtledove is writing about a President we both hate, but I can't think of anyone of whom we've both expressed strong negative opinions to each other. McClellan would come closest, but thankfully he got his ass kicked in the election. Turtle Fan 03:07, March 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I do refer to Lincoln. TR 14:55, March 22, 2010 (UTC) :::Is he now? That's . . . different. Should be interesting. Turtle Fan 21:09, March 21, 2010 (UTC) Doyle Sadly enough, even though I read Earthgrip, I don't remember that story in any way, let alone the reference to "Silver Blaze". That was the story about the tree-dwellers, right? TR 21:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC) Inspirations I read through this line by line in the interests of proofreading and of having a few chuckles to pass the time on a lazy Sunday afternoon. I was struck by how very many sci-fi/fantasy authors appear to have played indispensible roles in inspiring Turtledove's career (or at least how many he's credited as having done so). Anderson, Asimov, de Camp, Heinlein, Howard, Tolkein. . . . It almost makes me wonder whether they should get their own page? Turtle Fan 18:42, April 11, 2010 (UTC) :An "Authors Credited with Inspiring HT" page? That is probably worth doing. TR 14:44, April 12, 2010 (UTC) ::The thing is, the various sources which name these people each make it out as though their particular author were HT's single greatest influence. Surely they can't all be right. But that's not really the issue. An Inspiration page would be cool. So Anderson, Asimov, de Camp, Heinlein, Howard, Tolkein. . . . I'm trying to think whether anyone else has been named. Turtle Fan 15:05, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Interconnectivity! Fun fact: Roland Emmerich, who will be directing the film adaptation of Isaac Asimov's Foundation, has asked Robert Rodat to write the screenplay. Actually, I'm very concerned. Emmerich has said Foundation has to be a 3-D CGI fest on the model of Avatar because he "doesn't know how to do it otherwise." Really? Every character is human, so you don't have to whip up alien images (though that's certainly doable without CGI and 3-D; Star Trek and Star Wars figured it out decades ago, and their aliens look far more real than the NaVi, assuming you're not counting the half-assed aliens from TOS). The Mule is a mutant (or a Gaian, though I'm inclined to ignore Foundation's Edge) but his physical appearance is perhaps the most thorouhly described of anyone's and he looks perfectly normal (well, a little dumpier than most, but nothing that would require so much as prosthetic makeup, let alone be beyond the capabilities of costume designers altogether). Most of the battles, natural disasters, and flash-bang technological advances take place offstage. I'm having a hard time coming up with half a dozen scenes that would require significant special effects at all, and they're really insignificant scenes, or at least the elements that would require effects are. The action in Foundation is intellectual. Most scenes are characters explaining ideas. Now obviously a visual medium would want to spice it up a bit, but the fact remains that Foundation should be approached as a historical fiction film, not as sci-fi. A faithful adaptation would resemble the former far more closely. Which is why I've got a sinking feeling it's going to be butchered. Turtle Fan 07:00, May 1, 2010 (UTC) :For an Emmerich take on historical fiction, see The Patriot. That won't help your sinking feeling, but sadly, I have no hope to offer when it comes to Emmerich TR 19:15, May 4, 2010 (UTC) ::That was certainly not faithful to history, but do you know, I found it a lot of fun. Avatar was actually enjoyable, too, though I didn't give a shit about all the effects shots. (For God's sake, who cares?) The Patriot made a complete mockery not only of the history of Francis Marion but of the myth and lore. Avatar was an original story. (Well it was pretty thoroughly unoriginal, but it wasn't supposed to be an adaptation of something else.) Mix and match them, throw in a little Saving Private Ryan from Rodat's influence--That last bit will help, but not enough. This movie's going to suck ass, isn't it? Goddammit. Turtle Fan 20:19, May 4, 2010 (UTC) Classical Mythology All our talk of what to do with the Olympians got me thinking. We could surely write an extensive page on allusions from classical mythology. It would probably be longer than the Shakespeare and would need its own page. It would be somewhat difficult to fill, since we couldn't just do Search Inside like we did with Shakespeare; that's the same argument that grounded Biblical Allusions. However, allusions to classical mythology stand out more, and anyway we'd obviously know where to start looking: any story set in Greece or Rome of antiquity, or with mythical overtones, like "The Horse of Bronze" and "Miss Manners." Turtle Fan 05:41, May 14, 2010 (UTC) Frank Herbert I'm rereading Dune at the moment. Actually I'm only rereading it to a certain point, then I'll start reading the rest of it for the first time. I first started it some years ago and for some inexplicable reason I stopped reading it at some point. Most likely because something new and exciting came along. I'm sure I intended to go back and finish it eventually but I never did. Also, my copy has gotten lost, so I had to buy a new one. Oh well. Anyway, HT's description (well, Straha's; smart of him to have a character who would naturally be prevented from understanding the details be the one to attempt an explanation) of the FTL technology aboard the Commodore Perry is vague as all hell: something about manipulating superstrings so that points which had been very far apart are briefly touching. Now that description is compatible with what we know about the way the Spacing Guild works. But then, a very vague description is typically compatible with all sorts of things. It would be cool to have a Herbert allusion, but I wouldn't want to crawl so far out on a limb for it. Maybe if we had a slightly stronger reason to give Herbert a section, then tacked that on. Turtle Fan 23:20, June 8, 2010 (UTC) E. Rice Burroughs Burroughs was also mention in Days of Infamy in passing when Jim Peterson met a Burroughs fan and remembers that the author was presently living in Hawaii. I wonder if this reference could be mention in a separate page for Burroughs?--Drgyen 00:18, January 4, 2011 (UTC) :Well, Burroughs was alive, and was indeed living in Oahu at the time. That is certainly a boost towards justifying an article. TR 01:25, January 4, 2011 (UTC) Spielberg Actually, the raptors in JP were not Velociraptor but Utahraptor. Crichton had been a little vague on their species, I believe (and by the way, perhaps a Crichton section is also in order.) Spielberg's people called famous paleontologist Robert Bakker during preproduction and asked whether the concept for Velociraptor held water. Bakker had to tell him that the real raptors were less than half the size. But he said "Cheer up, evolution can produce significant size changes very quickly." It so happened that while they were working on the movie someone discovered a new species of raptor that's quite close to the way Spielberg had them. However, they didn't change the script. Turtle Fan 01:45, January 16, 2011 (UTC) Nonfiction The addition of Tacitus has me thinking whether we should take him and the three or four other exclusive writers of nonfiction I noticed skimming the page and give them a separate allusions article. While the definition of literature certainly doesn't exclude nonfiction, it does stand out a bit in the general vibe of most of the page--even more so than the musicians, who are going to get their own page one of these days. . . . Turtle Fan 17:59, January 28, 2012 (UTC) :Yeah, we're probably right on the edge (if not over) with the addition of Nietszche of creating a nonfiction something. :Or alternatively, we could reorganize this page into fiction, non-fiction, plays and film/television (we have a fair number of those latter two as well) sections, and then retitle it as "Cultural references in HT's work" or something like that. TR 22:55, February 1, 2012 (UTC) ::Ooh, I like the second option. It could even have a Music section, since it's looking pretty clear at this point that we're going to keep putting that one off ad infinitum. Turtle Fan 02:17, February 2, 2012 (UTC) ::I do like that second option. It would put all the influences in one place but seems to be a better way to organize it. ML4E 00:41, February 3, 2012 (UTC) T.S. Eliot My comments on Eliot by Colleton are from memory. I am pretty sure it was him and not some other POV but I don't have copies of the RE books so if someone could verify it, I would appreciate it. Eliot was not mentioned by name but the lines about how the world ends were, if that helps with your e-search. ML4E 00:33, February 25, 2012 (UTC) :It's Colleton. His very last scene, too: DttE p 584. Turtle Fan 07:06, February 25, 2012 (UTC) So what I wrote is accurate? If so, then I'll just add the page reference to the article. ML4E 18:41, February 25, 2012 (UTC) :Correct. Turtle Fan 07:43, February 26, 2012 (UTC) Paul McCartney Do we want to keep the McCartney section separate from the Beatles one? While "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" was written by Paul, it was performed by the Beatles. My instinct is to move the McCartney section to the Beatles, and hope HT never references "Maybe I'm Amazed". TR (talk) 16:29, February 8, 2014 (UTC) :I agree. Turtle Fan (talk) 19:35, February 8, 2014 (UTC) :Seems reasonable to me. ML4E (talk) 20:53, February 8, 2014 (UTC) To The Musical References With You I've just done that, namely taken all the singers, composers and other musicians out of here and moved them to the new "Musical References in Turtledove's Work" article. ML4E (talk) 23:36, July 20, 2015 (UTC) :Good job, hopefully that will give the new page some momentum to speed its growth. I've been flogging my brain trying to think of references that will fit. I've come up with a handful, and will check them against what you've transplanted. To avoid repetition. Turtle Fan (talk) 00:58, July 21, 2015 (UTC) :What I had done as well, was go through the "Songs" we have and added a few from them. I think I will do the same for "Singers" and "Musicians". I do recall previous discussion that some of the articles are rather thin so some Singers articles may be deleted later. ML4E (talk) 16:36, July 21, 2015 (UTC) Stephen King I think that reference is a little too vague. King is not the only author to use the "small towns are dangerous" trope, as the section itself notes. TR (talk) 15:25, October 12, 2015 (UTC) The point of the inclusion is that King is mentioned by name in that passage of the text.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:30, October 12, 2015 (UTC) :Ah, there it is. Never mind. TR (talk) 21:39, October 12, 2015 (UTC) Entries by Author or Work? We now have entries for Joseph Lawrence Greene and Tom Corbett, Space Cadet the former being the creator of the latter. We have been using the creators name in the past which argues for Greene but some works are much better known than their creators. In addition to this, I would argue something similar for other TV productions such as Colombo rather than Richard Levinson and William Link, South Park rather than Trey Parker and Matt Stone, and Star Trek rather than Gene Roddenberry. We might split these off as a new article "Allusions in Turtledove's Work" to address a point Turtle Fan made elsewhere. Only one purely literary example jumps out at me namely Encyclopedia Brown for Donald Sobol. ML4E (talk) 23:47, October 23, 2015 (UTC) :I guess for consistency's sake, we should go the author only rout, but you are correct, there will be those instances where a creation might outlive the creator, and that is something to consider. Gun to my head, I could never have come up the creator(s) of Colombo. Maybe instead of focusing on the medium, we should contemplate whether HT is referencing a specific famous character as opposed to plot line or quote etc? TR (talk) 00:09, October 24, 2015 (UTC) ::There's also Scott Adams. Perhaps that should be Dilbert. ::I would leave it as is pending a decision on how to cordon them off by media. Except of course that we've been saying we'd get to that for ages now, so maybe not. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:21, October 24, 2015 (UTC) Rodgers and Hammerstein Shouldn't they be in the musical allusions section instead of this one?JonathanMarkoff (talk) 03:41, November 26, 2015 (UTC) :Good point. They probably should. I had forgotten we had split that off from "Literary". ML4E (talk) 17:47, November 26, 2015 (UTC) Poul Anderson Shouldn't Poul Anderson have his own article in addition to the entry in this list?JonathanMarkoff (talk) 04:28, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :On what basis? TR (talk) 05:46, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::Does he appear, or earn a mention, in Hindsight? I don't believe so. :::He does not. He may be the source of "Starjammer II" (see Michelle Gordian for an explanation), but that's guesswork. He name does not appear. TR (talk) 06:07, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::Four of the six authors on the Turtledove's Literary Influences page have their own articles; three of the four have appeared in HT's canon, though all indirectly. The fourth is de Camp. I don't recall why we created his article (I'm pretty sure it predates any of these literary articles), but I would argue that, as the undisputed founding father of alternate history as a mass market literary genre, he's entitled to a little special treatment here. (I would also argue that, rather than Aaron Finch doing the tired old "Someone should write AH novels!" canard that HT finds so irresistible, he should have name-checked LDF in BA; but of course he didn't.) :::I could go either way on de Camp. We have this page and the TLI page, so de Camp's relevance is covered. On the other hand, as you say, he's the founding father. TR (talk) 06:07, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::Hearing HT describe, in that college visit you linked to a couple of years ago, how the random chance of stumbling upon LDF one fateful day decided both his careers, led to his meeting his ex-wife, and thus made all of his descendants possible, has me thinking we should look the other way on that one. (I tried to think of similarly fateful events at the root of my own life story, by the way. I came up with two strong candidates. One involved a time-sensitive letter that I didn't bother opening till after its deadline had passed, but it all worked out for the best in the end, or has thus far. The other . . . is too bitter a memory to discuss when I'm sober.) Turtle Fan (talk) 06:19, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::See first few paragraphs here. Its the introduction to The Enchanter Completed and covers the same as above. ::::On creating an Anderson page, I don't see a pressing need. "The Man who Came Late", mentioned below does make it more necessary but I don't see it as sufficient. ML4E (talk) 19:10, March 7, 2016 (UTC) ::By the way, the other author on the Lit Influences page who does not have an article is Tolkein. Do we think that the V-WW stuff should earn him one? I would argue no, for the same reason we created this page to begin with; but I think there's a stronger case to be made for Tolkein than there is for Anderson--if Jonathan is suggesting an Anderson article on those grounds at all, and not for some other reason I haven't thought of. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:59, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :::I agree--we don't need a Tolkein page until Tolkein himself is directly referenced. He isn't in V-WW. TR (talk) 06:07, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :::I also agree on Tolkien. Notwithstanding his influence on Videssos, he hasn't appeared or been referenced in any Turtledove works, just his legendarium which does deserve and have an article. ML4E (talk) 19:10, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :::::I think that influence is overblown. When you read the first chapter of the first book, it's clear that Scaurus's and Viridovix's swords could have sent the two of them and the rest of the gang to Middle Earth as easily as they did to Videssos. But they didn't, and once they decided not to, the similarities of the rest of the cycle to LotR are extremely tenuous and superficial: a diverse band of heroes, enchanted objects being used by their chosen bearers to defeat an ancient being of ultimate evil just as that being was on the verge of victory. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:21, March 8, 2016 (UTC) ::::The existence of "The Man who Came Late" set in an Anderson universe should get him a page just as de Camp, Saberhagen, Asimov, and Stirling have pages since HT wrote stories for their universes. Come to think of it, maybe PJ Farmer should to for the Riverworld story.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:21, March 7, 2016 (UTC) :::::Asimov's article was created for the "Hindsight" reference, but otherwise . . . damn, I think you may be right. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:21, March 8, 2016 (UTC) ::::::I'd rather pare all of those articles down to a single page, actually. While a thumbnail sketch will have its use for the share universe pieces, I don't think they justify a series of one paragraph articles. TR (talk) 04:36, March 8, 2016 (UTC) :::::::All right. The Asimov article will stand, and since it's not going anywhere I see no need to remove the section in question (as with many comparable situations, wuch as the very recent one involving Charles Lindbergh). I wouldn't mourn to see the others go. The key is of course consistency. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:08, March 8, 2016 (UTC) Time Patrol Last line in his entry: "The criminals in Turtledove's "Death in Vesunna" are wary of being caught by the Time Patrol, suggesting that the story takes place in the same universe as Anderson's series of stories about an agency by that name." I think the Time Patrol is a pretty generic term. Anderson may have inspired Turtledove to use the name but I very much doubt he intended the story to be set In Anderson's universe. ML4E (talk) 19:17, January 13, 2018 (UTC) :I agree. It's worth acknowledging the possible allusion, but then speculating about it's status as shared universe is baseless and unnecessary. TR (talk) 03:01, January 14, 2018 (UTC) Agatha Christie I can only vaguely remember specific references to Agatha Christie in HT work. At some point in The War That Came Early, Pete McGill is talking with another jarhead about Poirot, the other guy pronounces it poy rot rather than pwaro. I'm pretty sure Poirot gets a mention in The Hot War, and possibly The Man With the Iron Heart as well.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:19, October 29, 2016 (UTC) :Unless you come up with more, I am tempted to remove Christie. The purpose is to document allusions not to make vague assertions that someone is referenced. ML4E (talk) 16:30, October 29, 2016 (UTC) :See my comment here. Turtle Fan (talk) 20:06, October 29, 2016 (UTC) Italicizing and/or Bolding Jonathan: for some time now you have been doing busy work moving the initializations like this Departures to this [[Departures (collection)|Departures]]. I have found this to be mildly irritating but this particular example messed up the link leading to a red link. It should have been ''Departures'' but I have had enough of checking this nonsense for worse offenses. I am serving notice that I will no longer tolerate this and will rollback changes even if there are other, more useful edits. STOP IT NOW! ML4E (talk) 16:30, October 29, 2016 (UTC) New Mother Goose Entry I do not believe the fact that Armistice had a working title of All the King's Horses justifies the creation of this new sub-section. It seems too tenuous especially since a working title is not a canon creation. ML4E (talk) 00:40, March 11, 2017 (UTC) :Agreed! Only final publications are within our purview. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:03, March 11, 2017 (UTC) ::Indeed. TR (talk) 04:57, March 11, 2017 (UTC) :::Now that the poem is discussed at length within the novel, the subsection can be restored.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:40, August 6, 2017 (UTC) ::From what I have read so far, I would agree to restoring it with the two line quote repeated in the article. ML4E (talk) 17:35, August 8, 2017 (UTC) Donald Sobol I'm not so sure this is an accurate reference. The overly simplistic detective story formula, which relies on a trivial deus ex machina at the just the right time, is pretty generic, and hardly unique to Encyclopedia Brown.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 17:38, May 23, 2017 (UTC) :Yeah, I'm ok with getting rid of it. I made a crack about it once, and we sort of ran with it. Others may have a different opinion. TR (talk) 18:24, May 23, 2017 (UTC) :It does seem to be a weak connection. ML4E (talk) 20:09, May 23, 2017 (UTC) :I suppose. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:36, May 24, 2017 (UTC) Story Dedications The newly added Andre Norton sub-section is based on a dedication Turtledove made in a book. The new H. Beam Piper entry is based on a dedication and vague references to his parallel universe series being similar to Crosstime. However, according to Wikipedia, that series is about law enforcement across paratime by the Paratime Police. I don't think a mere dedication is worth mentioning or adding a sub-section and the parallels to Paratime and Crosstime seem too superficial to warrant an entry. ML4E (talk) 19:14, October 5, 2017 (UTC) :Dedications alone aren't literary allusions. Unless there is some specific call back to Andre Norton or H. Beam Piper in the specific work, they don't belong here. TR (talk) 21:32, October 5, 2017 (UTC) Jack London, H.L. Mencken London's entry can probably go. It repeats all the exact same points as his story article, except that it is written out of universe. :See my previous comments in Talk:Jack London. On reflection, Gianfranco is thinking about several works including The Iron Heel so it is more logical to keep the London article and shift Iron Heel to Lit. Allusions. That is, if it is necessary to eliminate one article which I am not at all convinced is required. ML4E (talk) 18:07, October 27, 2017 (UTC) Mencken's lit ref and his article seem a little redundant of each other. HLM has appeared as a POV in one story, and his role in other HT stories is limited to characters paraphrasing a handful of famous quotes. Either the TWTCE and JS sections of his article can be axed, or his lit ref can be axed with a lit com placed atop his article: "Mencken's most famous quotes are This, That, and The Other. Characters in numerous HT works have recited these quotes when suitable."JonathanMarkoff (talk) 18:29, October 26, 2017 (UTC) :That might work for "underestimating the intelligence" but the quote for "converts" occurs only once. I don't think that warrants placing it at the beginning of the Mencken article. As far the Lit. Allusions sub-section, it looks like work was being done to eliminate the two sub-sections you have listed for deletions so we may want to do that as we have for others. ML4E (talk) 18:07, October 27, 2017 (UTC) Richard Hooker, Hugh Lofting I feel there should probably be cutesy story-related captions accompanying the portraits of Hawkeye and the pushmi-pullyu, but can't think of any.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 18:11, November 7, 2017 (UTC) Jerome K. Jerome I guess it's time to move him from this list to Turtledove's Literary Influences, Co-Authors, and Creators of Shared Universes.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:04, January 19, 2018 (UTC) PT Barnum The Barnum section here seems to be redundant to his section within References to Historical Figures in Turtledove's Work. Especially since it's about a quote that he may not have actually said.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 03:54, April 5, 2018 (UTC) :Probably can go. Wait for others to comment Jonathan. ML4E (talk) 17:31, April 5, 2018 (UTC) ::I suspect we forgot to remove this when we added to References to Historical Figures in Turtledove's Work. It can go. TR (talk) 17:36, April 5, 2018 (UTC) :::It can go. Turtle Fan (talk) 17:39, April 7, 2018 (UTC) Jack London The Jack London subsection should probably go. It just repeats all the Gladiator points made in his own article in fewer words.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:03, April 5, 2018 (UTC) :See previous point in Talk:Literary Allusions in Turtledove's Work#Jack London, H.L. Mencken above which you have not yet addressed. ML4E (talk) 22:11, April 5, 2018 (UTC) ::I think both London himself and The Iron Heel should stay as articles. The lit ref here adds nothing to those.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:17, April 5, 2018 (UTC) ::Okay, if all you are proposing is the removal of the London sub-section from Lit. Allusions then I am fine with that. ML4E (talk) 21:48, April 6, 2018 (UTC) :::bump JonathanMarkoff (talk) 11:05, July 10, 2018 (UTC) :::Still fine with the removal of London from Lit. Allusions only. ML4E (talk) 17:27, July 10, 2018 (UTC) ::::So was I.;) TR (talk) 17:37, July 10, 2018 (UTC) :::::I really don't care. Turtle Fan (talk) 15:42, July 11, 2018 (UTC) Julius Streicher I don't see any value in his subsection. His altered fortune in ItPoME belongs in his own biographic article.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 06:54, July 15, 2018 (UTC) :I agree. TR (talk) 17:23, July 15, 2018 (UTC) ::Oh, TR, did you have to post a lengthy rewriting of Jonathan's reasoning? A simple "I agree" wouldn't suffice? Turtle Fan (talk) 18:28, July 15, 2018 (UTC) I agree, the Lit. Allusion seems redundant to the Streicher article. I agree, the Lit. Allusion seems redundant to the Streicher article. Is it possible that this was intended to replace the article? ML4E (talk) 19:38, July 15, 2018 (UTC) :I think that we just collected every literary everything we could when we first created the article. We can be more judicious now. Streicher's role in ItPoME is just substantive enough to justify his continued article. TR (talk) 20:38, July 15, 2018 (UTC) Ambrose Bierce As with Streicher and other examples above, I have just noticed that Bierce's subsection merely repeats his own article and The Devil's Dictionary.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:33, July 21, 2018 (UTC) :I agree, this sub-section can go. ML4E (talk) 19:42, July 22, 2018 (UTC) Winston Churchill Churchill's only reference in this list is a story-specific twee mad lib moment, which might be better reassigned to Winston Churchill (Joe Steele) as a lit comm or a footnote.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:40, July 21, 2018 (UTC) :The purpose of this page is to avoid extraneous lit comms and references in the articles proper. Keeping it here is in keeping with that purpose. TR (talk) 17:08, July 21, 2018 (UTC) :I agree with TR. If there were multiple references to the particular quote, then we could put in a "Lit. Com." with it and outlining where it was used, similar to the recent changes to the James Longstreet quote on raw troops and their flanks. In this case, we avoid the unnecessary Lit. Comm. by putting it here along with a list of other OTL quotes and works reverenced by Turtledove. ML4E (talk) 19:49, July 22, 2018 (UTC) Mark Twain As with others, this entry simply repeats the bullet points of Twain's own article.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 01:04, July 24, 2018 (UTC) :It might be worth doing. TR (talk) 07:20, September 21, 2018 (UTC) :I see no reason in removing it. ML4E (talk) 20:56, September 21, 2018 (UTC) Robert E. Howard I think REH's section should be conflated with his entry in Turtledove's Literary Influences, Co-Authors, and Creators of Shared Universes and moved there.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:00, September 20, 2018 (UTC) :I don't think so. The Lit. Influences are just that: what influenced Turtledove's writings. The Lit. Allusions are references to the author or his work within Turtledove's writings. Two distinct purposes. ML4E (talk) 20:54, September 21, 2018 (UTC) :ML4E, you explained that so well that I see no way to improve on it, but I still wanted to add my full-throated endorsement. Turtle Fan (talk) 00:36, September 22, 2018 (UTC) H.B. Stowe Stowe's section seems simply to be repeated points of the Uncle Tom's Cabin and Aunt Clarissa's Serf Hut articles.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:32, October 26, 2018 (UTC) :Good thing she doesn't have her own article, then! Turtle Fan (talk) 00:17, October 27, 2018 (UTC) Locked page This page is still not open for additions.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 10:47, December 16, 2018 (UTC) :What do you want to add? TR (talk) 18:00, December 16, 2018 (UTC) ::Various literary discussions made by characters in Worldwar.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 03:40, December 17, 2018 (UTC) :Unfortunately, we have to keep it locked, because there's an editor with a years-long history of adding nonsense to pages like these even after being explicitly told not to. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:16, December 16, 2018 (UTC) George F. Cram George F. Cram (1842-1928) served in the U.S. Army during the American Civil War. After the war ended, Cram joined his uncle Rufus Blanchard's Evanston map business in 1867. Two years later, he became sole proprietor of the firm and renamed it the George F. Cram Co. which became a leading map firm and first American firm to publish a world atlas. It employed a relief process. In How Few Remain, Samuel Clemens consults the George F. Cram Atlas of the World when the Second Mexican War begins. (p. 22, HC) This reference is sufficiently contemporary and post-POD.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:24, January 1, 2019 (UTC) Herman Melville In T2G, it mentions "the great grey whale in the famous novel of the same name." So the novel's title is The Great Grey Whale. The author is still unknown.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 09:25, January 17, 2019 (UTC) Emory Upton in Southern Victory On How Few Remain p. 121 HC (ch. 5), TR reflects on the value of manuals by Emory Upton. This is notable because the POD would directly affect the circumstances under which Upton wrote.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 11:17, January 24, 2019 (UTC) :Are there any indications of how his work was different? Didn't think so. Nope. ML4E (talk) 19:07, January 24, 2019 (UTC) ::The fact that he wrote great manuals in a defeated country rather than a victorious is a dimension all in itself.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:24, January 24, 2019 (UTC) :::The circumstances, but the actual works are still unknown. I'm with ML4E. TR (talk) 00:46, January 25, 2019 (UTC) ::::I am too. Reluctantly, as I really do find Upton to be a fascinating figure. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:45, January 25, 2019 (UTC) Beatrix Potter There are characters named for BP character in Harry Turtledove's Southern Victory American Front and Laura Frankos' A Late Symmer Night's Battle. This probably merits a lit ref entry.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 19:25, May 1, 2019 (UTC) :Unless there is some significance to the name(s), I don't see why it merits an entry. Could you please give some examples from AF so I have a better ides what you are talking about. ML4E (talk) 21:51, May 2, 2019 (UTC) ::AF has Pierre Lapin, a Canadian soldier. ALSNB has Mr. Tod the fox.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 08:37, May 3, 2019 (UTC) :::So as I suspected, there is no significance in the names. Turtledove just use Potter (surname of Clarence Potter incidentally) as a source for names the way he has with foreign soccer players and politicians. Not needed as an allusion since they aren't allusions. ML4E (talk) 19:35, May 3, 2019 (UTC) ::::I was actually expecting Matthew to invoke Farmer McGregor. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:30, May 4, 2019 (UTC) :::::Oddly enough, Pierre Lapin was stationed at the McGregor farm, which may be deliberate.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 07:39, May 4, 2019 (UTC) :::Hmm. I don't think I ever read the Peter Rabbit books so the connection between Pierre Lapin and Farmer McGregor didn't occur to me. Perhaps I was hasty in dismissing the Allusion. ML4E (talk) 14:12, May 4, 2019 (UTC) ::::I think it still seems tenuous, but I think it might just barely have legs to stand on. Turtle Fan (talk) 17:22, May 4, 2019 (UTC) P.G. Wodehouse It seems that Wodehouse originated the "Elementary, my dear Watson" line which is crucial to "Nothing in the Nighttime". I almost remember a reference to Wodehouse himself and/or his better known characters in an HT work, possibly The War That Came Early and/or The Hot War. Can anyone confirm or deny? :The phrase is closely tied to Holmes and is used as a pun for the story ending. Whether it originated with Doyle or with Wodehouse is immaterial so I see no reason to add Wodehouse to the Allusions article. ML4E (talk) 18:59, November 10, 2019 (UTC) Oddly enough, Wodehouse is lurking just outside of "Two Thieves." In one of the other stories in the same Riverworld collection, Wodehouse is the POV, and talks about New Constantinople as if he's been there or knows someone who has.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 18:44, November 9, 2019 (UTC) L. Frank Baum I don't think the Baum section is necessary. It just repeats points made in his own article, The Wizard of Oz, and Inconsistencies in Turtledove's Work.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 19:24, December 16, 2019 (UTC)